In Conversation – Trinity or Godhead

There is a Facebook Ad promoting a new book published by Truth in Love Ministries. It is entitled Crossing the Chasm: Helping Mormons Discovery the Bridge to God by Mark Cares (Founder of Truth in Love Ministries) and Jon Leach. Out of curiosity – I purchased and received the book. After reading the first two chapters – I provided a comment with a link to the first article An LDS Perspective on Why God’s Identification As Male is Key to Understanding Life Meaning and Purpose. This garnered the following response:

I think the point is that in the LDS faith, the doctrine of the trinity is denied. This doctrine is a core doctrine of biblical Christianity and any biblically Christianity church would consider it a great heresy to deny that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist , Charismatic ect all believe the trinity though they would disagree on secondary issues. The doctrine of the trinity is as much a part of the true gospel as Jesus or the belief or sin, the virgin birth or the physical resurrection of Jesus. It’s a very important doctrine and the fact that the LDS deny this is just one of the many issues with Mormonism in comparison to biblical Christianity.

Aptly provided the following response to this comment:

If you believe that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh then you also are agreeing:

1) God has changed and is not the same yesterday, today, and forever (as the book and many Christian apologists state)

2) God did come down and live a mortal life (as Jesus Christ) by taking on human flesh

3) God did die, was buried, and resurrected with a body of flesh and bones only to ascend after 40 days (through Jesus Christ)

4) God became an exalted man and continues to maintain a physical body of flesh and bone (Through Jesus Christ)

Yet, if you deny that these are false and heretical teachings that are not Biblically based then you have falsely taught heresy. So, what say you?

And by the way, the modern Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a false and heretical doctrine of the Second Century Gnostic Valentinian teaching.

The Bible – even Christ’s on words – declare that Christ is separate and distinct from the Father.

1) Christ constantly told his disciples “I came to do my father’s will”

2) John 17 (entire Chapter) Christ is praying to the Father and requests that the glory he had with the Father in the Beginning be restored to him as he is united with the father and asks that the disciples be united with him as he is united with the father

3) Resurrection account in the Gospel of John Christ tells the woman “Don’t touch me for I have not ascended but go and tell them that I go unto my God and your God, my Father and your Father”

This is based on the statement the individual made: ...it a great heresy to deny that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh … Looking at this statement, it appears to be established on a false premise of understanding the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Father. My comment asked specifically whether or not the individual is willing to admit or deny the points being brought up based on what is stated. Instead of answering the question, the individual provided a lengthy response.

What follows is a response to the questions and statements brought up.

Question 1: So this by admitting that the LDS faith denies the trinity, are you not admitting that is something that separates you from every Christian denomination?

Nowhere have I made any statements admitting as to what the LDS Faith does or does not believe regarding the nature of the Godhead. Furthermore, there is no denial or admission as to what separates the LDS Christian faith from other Mainstream Christian denominational teachings on the supposed core tenets of Historic Christianity. My question is based on what was previously stated in the following comment:

I think the point is that in the LDS faith, the doctrine of the trinity is denied. This doctrine is a core doctrine of biblical Christianity and any biblically Christianity church would consider it a great heresy to deny that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh.

Positing such question appears to deflect an honest and intellectual response to the points being brought up. This is evident with the following statement:

The way I see it is the LDS church wants to have its cake and eat it to. It wants to be considered a Christian denomination whilst denying core tenants of Christian faith, and yet still have the title ‘the One True church’ with ‘the fullness of the gospel’. But you can’t have it both ways. You are either another mainline Christian denomination or you are the ‘one true church’ (thus separating yourself from Christianity). You cannot divide the body of Christ like that and still want to be called ‘Christian’, after all Jesus said for the Body to be One as He is with the Father John 17:21. To say I’m of this church or I’m of that church is to be carnally minded as 1 Cor. 3:3-9 states (which as Romans 8:6 says is death).

This deflection is known as a Red Herring logical Fallacy. By redirecting the comment away from the points of questioning and observation – the individual focuses on the LDS Faith’s claim of being the One True Church and then citing John 17:21, 1 Corinthians 3:3-9, and Romans 8:6. Utilizing a fallacy that provides a misdirection away from the original point of conversation shows ineptness to engage from an intellectually honest perspective. However, the individual continues this misdirection:

If Smith stated all our creeds are an abomination to God (what he believes God told him), then fine, don’t associate with Christianity then. But you can’t dine at the table of the Lords and the table of satans (1 Cor. 10:21). The Bible states this. ‘Abomination’ would qualify as the table of Satan. (Witchcraft and homosexuality are called abominations in duetoronmy).So this by admitting that the LDS faith denies the trinity, are you not admitting that is something that separates you from every Christian denomination? The way I see it is, the LDS church wants to have its cake and eat it to. It wants to be considered a Christian denomination whilst denying core tenants of Christian faith, and yet still have the title ‘the One True church’ with ‘the fullness of the gospel’. But you can’t have it both ways. You are either another mainline Christian denomination or you are the ‘one true church’ (thus separating yourself from Christianity). You cannot divide the body of Christ like that and still want to be called ‘Christian’, after all Jesus said for the Body to be One as He is with the Father. If Smith stated all our creeds are an abomination to God (what he believes God told him), then fine, don’t associate with Christianity then. But you can’t dine at the table of the Lords and the table of satans. The Bible states this. ‘Abomination’ would qualify as the table of Satan.

This particular diatribe appears to be a more lengthy reiteration of the previous statement. Only apparent difference is making the claim that the LDS Faith not only appears to deny core Christian tenets and teachings – but that the LDS Faith is considered an abomination and dines at the Table of Satan.

Let us now turn to the response to the points made and see how the conversation unfolds regarding my statement : If you believe that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh then you also are agreeing. What follows is the points I make, the individuals response, and then my rebuttal to their response.

1. God has changed and is not the same yesterday, today, and forever (as the book and many Christian apologists state)

yes I agree. God has not changed. Hebrews 13:8, Malachi 3:6, James 1:17, Isaiah 40:8, Psalm 102:25-27, Psalm 119:89, Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17, Rev 22:13, and Psalm 90:2 among many other verses state this. Therefore God has always been God and will always be God, and no one else can be God after Him (Isaiah 43:20)

Keeping in mind – the individual stated that Jesus Christ is God the Father Manifested in the Flesh. According to mainstream Christian teaching – God does not change. This includes his nature. Let us take this statement from Ligioner Ministries website on The God Who Never Changes:

Summarizing the witness of Scripture, question and answer 4 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism states that God is “unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth.” Our Lord is immutable—His character and being can experience no change or mutation (see Heb. 1:10–12). God cannot grow more or less powerful. He can never cease to be holy, just, good, or true. His wisdom and knowledge cannot be increased or decreased.

The word Being has a variety of different meanings – and is dependent upon how it is used. Here, we are not only looking at the reality of God’s existence – we are specifically identifying His nature. For many mainstream Christians, God’s nature is that of a Spirit. To the Latter-day Saint (based on Scripture and Revelation), God the Father exists with a body of flesh and bones and not as a spirit. However, the idea that Christ is God, the Father Manifested in the Flesh appropriately begs the question – Did God’s nature change from that of a Spirit to that of a Mortal Man and then to an Exalted being upon Christ’s Resurrection? This is the whole point I was driving to regarding the individual’s statement.

Therefore, it shows that the person admits God’s nature does not change (and cites scripture) yet maintains the belief that Christ is God the Father manifested in the flesh. Both conclusions appear to be contradictory. Either Christ is God the Father manifested in the flesh and thereby admitting that God’s nature changed (when He is supposedly Unchangeable): Or, the nature of Christ and the Father are separate and distinct from one another.

Here is the nature of the contradiction that appears to unfold:

2. God did come down and live a mortal life (as Jesus Christ) by taking on human flesh

yes, Jesus is fully God and fully man. John 1:1, John 1:14, Col. 2:9, John 8:58, Romans 8:9, Luke 5:21. Mark 2:5, John 10:30. 1 Cor. 8:6. Philippians 2:5-8. Col. 1:15-17. 2 Cor. 3:17. Jesus also accepted worship in Matthew 28:16-20. This would have been blasphemous if He was not God in the flesh. And doesn’t the LDS church say we worship Heavenly Father, not Jesus. Therefore according to LDS theology this is blasphemous. Feel free to stop me at X verse. There is a lot of ground to cover in regard to this topic.

Notice my comment was not focused on worshiping God or Christ. It merely was asking whether or not Jesus Christ was God the Father manifested in the Flesh and whether or not God’s nature changed. This individual appears to circle back to substantiate their claim with the following statement (again, citing scripture): Yes, Jesus is fully God and Fully Man. Again, if Christ is Fully God and Fully Man – and is the Father Manifested in the Flesh then God’s nature (his being) changed from that of a Spirit to a Mortal Man. Yet, this person stated that they agree that God has not changed.

3. God did die, was buried, and resurrected with a body of flesh and bones only to ascend after 40 days (through Jesus Christ)

God didn’t die. God cannot die. Jesus died. I know that may sound like I’m contradicting what I’m saying but let me try to explain. Genesis 1:26 says Let us make man in our image. A few things, first off if Jesus and Heavenly Father are separate then this verse should read ‘images’ rather it reads ‘image’ as in one. We are triune as God is since we are made in His image. We have a Body Soul and Spirit. 1 Thess. 5:23. Hebrews 4:12. Luke 1:46-47. I have a body soul and spirit. My body doesn’t know everything my spirit knows. Same with God. That is why No one knows the Day or the Hour except the Father (Matthew 24:36). And also the Father is greater John 14:28.

Here is where one may notice the confusion being established. Jesus is the Father manifested in the flesh. Jesus is fully God and fully Man. Yet God has not changed (regarding His physical nature/being) however, Jesus lived a mortal life, was crucified and died, buried, and rose with a body of flesh and bone. But, it was not God that died – it was Jesus. What also amazes me is that the individual did not appear to fully read the article I linked to in my initial comment. Had they taken the time to read this article, they would most likely have read the section Creation of Humanity. There, I explore the nature of Genesis 1:26-27 and what the nature of Image and Likeness means from a Jewish and Biblical Scholarly standpoint.

4. God became an exalted man and continues to maintain a physical body of flesh and bone (Through Jesus Christ)

I don’t believe God is an exalted man, that is an LDS teaching. God doesn’t have a body. Jesus IS GODS PHYSICAL body. John 14:9, “9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father.” Col. 1:15, “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.”

Again, the inconsistency. On the one hand, they declare that God is not an exalted man – yet maintain Christ is the Father manifested in the Flesh and Is Gods Physical Body. If Christ is God’s Physical Body – then does that make God a person who is an exalted man? Much confusion here.

Let us move on to the last points and see how this person responded:

May the real heresy stand up

Responding to my charge regarding possible heretical teachings based on this individuals statements regarding Jesus Christ, the Father, and the nature of the Godhead:

I don’t think you understand what the concept of the Trinity is. God did not die. He cannot die, He is immortal. “And by the way, the modern Christian doctrine of the Trinity is a false and heretical doctrine of the Second Century Gnostic Valentinian teaching.” No, the teaching that Jesus is a created being is a heresy that Arius came up with in the 3rd century that the first council of niceae had him exiled for.

Actually, based on information provided – I am quite familiar with the nature of the Trinity. As expounded upon above – there is adequate information to make a conclusion that what the individual believes is inconsistent, illogical, and contradictory. As for my claim regarding the nature of the Trinity being of a Second Century Gnostic Teaching of the Valentinians – see my article Comparative Theology On the Nature of God the Father where I link to the gnostic teaching and then provide the following comparison:

Second Century Gnostic Valentinian Teaching	Valentinians believed that God is incomprehensible and cannot be known directly. Therefore he defies accurate description. He is infinite, without beginning or end and is the ultimate origin of all things. He encompasses all things without being encompassed. Everything including the world lies within the deity and continues to be part of it. The Godhead manifests itself through a process of self-unfolding in the subsequent multiplicity of being while maintaining its unity. Valentinians believed that God is androgynous and frequently depicted him as a male-female dyad. This is related to the notion that God provides the universe with both form and substance. The feminine aspect of the deity is called Silence, Grace and Thought. Silence is God’s primordial state of tranquillity and self-awareness She is also the active creative Thought that makes all subsequent states of being (or “Aeons”) substantial. The masculine aspect of God is Depth, also called Ineffable and First Father. Depth is the profoundly incomprehensible, all-encompassing aspect of the deity. He is essentially passive, yet when moved to action by his feminine Thought, he gives the universe form.
Seventh Day Adventist Teaching	Seventh-day Adventist teach that there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation.
Eastern Orthodox Teaching	The fundamental truth of the Orthodox Church is the faith revealed in the True God: the Holy Trinity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is in reality the declaration of the Christian faith, formulated and pronounced by the Ecumenical Synods of the One Undivided Church. It is impossible for the finite human mind to comprehend objectively the substance of the True God, true worship, and true norms of life. Human reasoning in regard to faith in the Holy Trinity is confined to formulating the truths which already have been revealed in the Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. These truths of the Holy Trinity were formulated by the First and Second Ecumenical Synods in the Nicene Creed and were based on Divine Sources. The Orthodox Church believes that God is one in substance and Triune in three Persons or Hypostases. The Church pronounces in its lucid liturgical confession: “I confess the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, Trinity consubstantial and undivided.” In the Holy Scriptures, there are passages recorded to strengthen this belief in the Holy Trinity in which the faith in God is revealed. The Scriptures proclaim “to us there is but one God, the Father” (1 Cor. 8:6); “in him (the Son) dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Col. 2:9; cf. Matt. 26:63); and, relating to the Holy Spirit, “thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God” (Acts 5:4). This fundamental belief in the Holy Trinity was the subject of all the Ecumenical Synods in which the unchangeable pronouncement on the Holy Trinity was affirmed. They proclaimed primarily that the second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Logos, and the Third Person, the Holy Spirit, are of the same essence, Homoousios, of the Father. In the personal attributions of the Divine Persons of the Holy Trinity, the Father begot the Son and from the Father proceeds the Holy Spirit. The Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, sends the Holy Spirit to guide His Church (cf. John 15:26). The nature and attributes of the Persons of the Holy Trinity are revealed through Jesus Christ. The truth can be reached only by faith, being above and beyond human comprehension.
Lutheran Teaching	The Being who made the world and man and to whom man is responsible. Man’s knowledge of God falls into 2 broad categories: (1) God is known to man through power and design in the natural world and through pattern in the forces of hist. (Ps 19; Acts 17:22–31; Ro 1:18–2:16); man is thereby enabled to construct a mental picture of a supremely powerful Force working out man’s destiny with a heavy hand, confronting mankind with continual challenge. Human reactions to this understanding of God result in reverence for nature and idolatry, in attempts to rationalize God into abstract natural law and to remove man’s responsibility to Him (2 Ptr 3:3–4), or in despair and fear. This natural knowledge of God, basic to every human system of religion and to most philos., is insufficient for a satisfying and adequate faith in God, who still remains Deus incognitus (the unknown God). Insight into God is not within range of human endowment (Jn 1:18). (2) God revealed Himself to man more clearly and completely by the incarnation* of Christ* Jesus (Deus incarnatus) as a Being infinitely pained by man’s deviation from His holiness, yet infinitely desirous to repair the breach, to the point of Himself assuming responsibility for this repair at the cost of His own sacrifice. Thus God is revealed as perfect and holy, as personal and driven by love to conform man to the image of His Son (Ro 8:29). This revelation* of God in His Son is communicated through the written Word (see Word of God). This Word presents more data about His nature, which are intelligible and credible to us, however, only in the light of the central revelation in Christ Jesus, the Word of God (Deus revelatus). God is eternal, not subject to time (Ps 90:1–4; 2 Ptr 3:8). God is neither confined to space or time nor limited in power, knowledge, or wisdom. He is benevolent, inasmuch as He desires to bless the objects to His love. All resources of God are at the disposal of man in Christ (Ph 4:13) and are recognized by him to work for his good (Ro 8:24–39). A Christian’s insight into God and his power to grasp and to trust in God as his forgiving and enabling Father is the work of God Himself, the gift of the Holy* Spirit. The Christian church* summarized the nature of God and a Christian’s knowledge of God in the concept of the Trinity.* RRC
Methodist Teaching	When we say the Apostles’ Creed, we join with millions of Christians through the ages in an understanding of God as a Trinity—three persons in one: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God, who is one, is revealed in three distinct persons. “God in three persons, blessed Trinity” is one way of speaking about the several ways we experience God. We also try to find adjectives that describe the divine nature. In our Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith, we affirm God is “everlasting” and “infinite” in “power, wisdom, justice, goodness, and love.” Because we cannot speak literally about God, we use metaphors: God is a Shepherd, a Bridegroom, a Judge. God is Love or Light or Truth.
Presbyterians Teaching The Scot’s Confession	We confess and acknowledge one God alone, to whom alone we must cleave, whom alone we must serve, whom only we must worship, and in whom alone we put our trust. Who is eternal, infinite, immeasur-able, incomprehensible, omnipotent, invisible; one in substance and yet distinct in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. By whom we confess and believe all things in heaven and earth, visible and invisible, to have been created, to be retained in their being, and to be ruled and guided by his inscrutable providence for such end as his eter-nal wisdom, goodness, and justice have appointed, and to the manifes-tation of his own glory.
Roman Catholicism Teaching	228 “Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD. . .” (Dt 6:4; Mk 12:29). “The supreme being must be unique, without equal. . . If God is not one, he is not God” (Tertullian, Adv. Marc., 1, 3, 5: PL 2, 274). 229 Faith in God leads us to turn to him alone as our first origin and our ultimate goal, and neither to prefer anything to him nor to substitute anything for him. 230 Even when he reveals himself, God remains a mystery beyond words: “If you understood him, it would not be God” (St. Augustine, Sermo 52, 6, 16: PL 38, 360 and Sermo 117, 3, 5: PL 38, 663). 231 The God of our faith has revealed himself as HE WHO IS; and he has made himself known as “abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness” (Ex 34:6). God’s very being is Truth and Love.
Unitarians Teaching	Unitarian Universalists have many ways of naming what is sacred. Some believe in a God; some don’t believe in a God. Some believe in a sacred force at work in the world, and call it “love,” “mystery,” “source of all” or “spirit of life.” We are thousands of individuals of all ages, each influenced by our cultures and life experiences to understand “the ground of our being” in our own way.
Evangelical Christianity Teaching	There is one God, and the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are all God. This is clear in the Scripture, and while it may be mysterious to us, it is the objective claim of the Bible. The first Christians understood the importance of retaining this truth about God in order to retain the true identity of Jesus. When early Christians tried to maintain the oneness of God without regard to the Divine description of Jesus and the Holy Spirit as we’ve just described, they usually redefined (and mischaracterized) Jesus as a human, limited, or finite creature. But, if Jesus is not God in every sense of the word (as the Bible claims), then He does not have the power to save us on the Cross. If Jesus is not God Incarnate, then he simply cannot take our place and bestow upon us the righteousness of God. For this reason, the earliest leaders were very careful to describe the triune nature of God as seen in the Bible. They eventually described God as one in substance, essence or nature, while being distinctly but undividedly three in person.

As for the nature of Arius and the Third Century teaching of Christ being Created – yes, that was just as heretical as well. However, Latter-day Saint Christians do not believe Christ was created.

Furthering the discussion – the individual provided the following statement:

“The Bible – even Christ’s on words – declare that Christ is separate and distinct from the Father.” You must not have read John 8;58, “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” I Am was a title ONLY given to God the Father in Exodus 3:16. And what about the fact that Jesus received worship Matthew 28:17, “When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.” John 10:30, “30 I and the Father are one.” It doesn’t say ‘one in purpose but separate in being’, it says ONE. AND He prays the Church (the body of believers or Bride of Christ) will be One because we are NOT one. Jesus is able to forgive sins and even the Pharisee’s find this blasphemous. He has to be God otherwise He is committing blasphemy and He cannot be without sin if Hr is committing blasphemy(Luke 5:21, Mark 2:5).

Actually, I am very familiar with Christ statement regarding I AM. In Hebrew (Exodus 3:16) the term is referring to YHWH or Yehovah. Jesus informs those present that He is Yehovah – hence their desire to stone him for claiming to be YHWH their God.

Pertaining to the nature of John 10:30 I and my Father are One we need to examine this in its appropriate context (cf John 10:24-42, KJV). What most Christians fail to understand is the Greek nature of the New Testament. Here is the Thayers Greek Lexicon for Strongs NT #1520:

to be united most closely (in will, spirit), John 10:30; John 17:11, 21-23; ἐν ἑνί πνεύματι, μία ψυχή, Philippians 1:27 cf. Acts 4:32 (cf. Cicero, Lael. 25 (92)amicitiae vis est in eo, ut unus quasi animus fiat ex pluribus); ἀπό μιᾶς (see ἀπό, III., p. 59{b}), Luke 14:18.

Based on this, John 10:30 is appropriately interpreted as Christ telling those round about him: “I and my Father are united in will and spirit. This is quite evident when we actually consider the context of John 10:24-42. Notice the following statements Christ makes:

1. The Works I do in My Father’s Name bear witness of me
2. My Father is Greater than all
3. Many good works have I shown you from the Father
4. The Father Sanctified, sent into the world – I am the Son of God
5. If I do not the works of the Father
6. Believe the works I do and know and believe the Father is in me

Here, we see Christ plainly explaining that he is sent by the father. He is doing the works of the Father, and therefore, he and the father are united in spirit and will. This is further established since the individual mentions that Christ prayed for united within the body of Christ and that they may be united in will and spirit as the Father and the Son are united in will and spirit.

What now follows is the kicker:

“1) Christ constantly told his disciples “I came to do my father’s will Yes I believe that. And He was the ONLY ONE to do it perfectly. Why? Because He is God in the flesh. He submitted to the Fathers will FULLY.

The admission that Christ declared he came to do the will of the Father. Submitted himself over to the Father. Yet, we have this next comment:

John 17 (entire Chapter) Christ is praying to the Father and requests that the glory he had with the Father in the Beginning be restored to him as he is united with the father and asks that the disciples be united with him as he is united with the father” yes. I believe this too. Col. 1:15-18, “15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.” Jesus was with God in the beginning. As was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). John 1:1, ” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” This verse VERY clearly says that Jesus is God the Father in the flesh. Because remember the Word is Jesus. John 1:14, “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” How ANYONE can read John 1:1 and get anything but what it says, I’ll never understand. It’s so clear and simple.

Going right back to the earlier statement that Christ is God the Father Manifested in the flesh. All the while – spending time attempting to explain how God’s nature does not change and is the same – yet Christ has a different nature than that of the Father. What this person failed to understand is that the Greek for Word is LOGOS and it is the term where Logic and Reason comes from. In other words – the logic and reason of God is manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ. This is evident through Christ’s teachings. Furthermore, most Christians fail to take into consideration the full context of John 1:1 as it describes Christ’s deity and preeminence.

Instead of providing an adequate response – this individual appears to have taken a trip around the theological mulberry bush. Providing assumptions, attempting to back them up with scripture, and then apparently engaged in willful contradiction.

What amazes me is that on the final point regarding Christ’s resurrection – there is some quotations regarding the Book of Mormon teaching that Jesus is the Father. Here are some good articles that address this issue:

1. The Doctrine of God the Father in the Book of Mormon by Andrew Skinner
2. How is Christ both the Father and the Son? Book of Mormon Central
3. Some passages in the Book of Mormon seem to indicate that there is only one God and that he is a spirit only. How can we explain this?
4. Question: Does the Book of Mormon teach that Christ and the Father are a single individual expressing himself in different modes?

Hopefully these resources helps the individual come to a full understanding of what the Book of Mormon truly teaches regarding Christ and the Father instead of their presumption of what they have been led to believe.